smaller variety of Common Hackberry, georgiana Ahles, grows to 40 feet The sugar hackberry, or sugarberry, is a fast-growing large tree with a broad vase-shaped crown. Hackberry trees can easily adapt to a range of pH levels, as well as moisture levels and soil types. While Although it wont harm the tree, it is disfiguring. Answer: The browning of the hackberry (Celtis occidentalis) leaves is probably due to lace bugs. The fruit will persist into the late winter months and serve as an important food source for a variety of bird species, including cardinals, flickers, robins, cedar waxwings, and brown thrashers (though that also means they are often damaged by other animals, such as deer). The collection features 25 period species of oak trees and more than 30 historic gardens. One of the best trees for windy or rocky conditions in our windbreaks, or shade tree. tree can also be used for windbreaks and help in erosion control. The Buzz About Bees: Why Do We Need Them? This will also reduce heat damage to the roots on warm summer days. If you cannot provide them with these lighting conditions, however, no worries! Many different birds are attracted to the berries that this tree produces. Celtis occidentalis is the tree native to the Northeast that I am familiar with. Dig down until you can undercut the soil ball at an angle of about 45 degrees. Hackberries have a thin, very sweet purple skin surrounding a crunchy shell with a tiny nut inside. Its small sweet fruits attract many species of birds. They can even stand up to strong winds and tolerate air pollution. Although it usually rots pretty easily, some people use this wood for fencing and making cheap furniture. We occasionally link to goods offered by vendors to help the reader find relevant products. Hackberry needs full sun but is tolerant of partial sun in it youth.It Their leaves serve as a food source for several gall-producing insects, but without causing any serious damage to the Hackberries. Remove low-hanging, weak, or broken branches, and branches that touch or intersect with others. Most diseases that affect hackberry trees do not cause harm, and are mainly just aesthetic concerns. average price of a two-year-old bare root seedling is $2.50.Wire How to Grow and Care for Inaba Shidare Japanese Maple, How to Grow and Care For Monkey Puzzle Trees, How to Grow and Care for 'Early Harvest' Apple Tree, How to Grow and Care for October Glory Maple, How to Grow and Care for Cherry Tree Bonsai, How to Grow and Care for London Planetree, How to Grow and Care for Chicago Hardy Fig, How to Grow and Care for a Satsuma Orange Tree, How to Grow and Care for Alligator Juniper, How to Grow Magnolia Grandiflora (Southern Magnolia Trees), serve as an important food source for a variety of bird species. Other common names given to the hackberry include common hackberry, sugarberry, nettletree, beaverwood, northern hackberry and American hackberry. will take place in the late winter to early spring.The used in the greenhouse should not be completely sterile, but should have Mushrooms may start to grow near the base, and these fruiting bodies of Ganoderma fungi are a sure sign that your tree is rotting. Trees most commonly affected are hackberry, sycamore, and oak. If you live in Dallas, TX, or the surrounding area and are searching for a tree trimming service, don't hesitate to contact S&P today at 469-789-6775. The name hackberry originated from the Scottish "hagberry" which in England was the common name bird cherry. The leaf looks similar to an elm tree but the bark is very distinct with it warty appearance and is the easiest way to identify it. sinensis Green Cascade is a rare weeping variety of hackberry. Either granular, liquid or stake type fertilizers can be used. After it establishes, the tree can reach heights of 40 to 60 feet at the crown and 25 to 45 feet across. It actually ripped all the leaves off the tree, and bent the tree over so far that it wrinkled the bark and it pulled away from the trunk but survived all that with no ill effects. We transplanted two hackberry trees three years ago and they haven't grown any taller. soil in the seedling post, in the greenhouse, should not be saturated because Some Filicium decipiens Guide : How to Grow & Care for Fern Tree, Laurus Nobilis Guide: How to Grow & Care for Bay Tree, Citrus x Junos Guide: How to Grow & Care for Yuzu Tree. In the event of an aphid infestation, spraying neem oil on the leaves can help remedy the situation. These trees are known to be able to Read more, This tree is moderately drought hardy but will do best on moist but well draining sites. During the first season after planting, it is best to water your Hackberries once every week. The Tyler Trees Committee and the City of Tyler Urban Forestry Division will host a tree planting event as part of Arbor Day at Fun Forest Park on Saturday, Jan. 21. Because of the berries it produces that are so attractive to birds, you will often see hackberry trees along fence lines and power lines where the birds have perched after eating the berries elsewhere. Good varieties to transplant include oak, birch, magnolia, dogwood, eucalyptus and tea tree. basket prices for a 2-inch diameter tree are $78 and $87 for a 2.5-inch Propagating Netleaf Hackberry You can propagate netleaf hackberry most easily via cuttings. Scale infestations can significantly weaken trees, leaving them more susceptible to other diseases and stressors as well. Everything from raccoons and bears to white-footed mice and wild turkeys feed on its fruit. Type above and press Enter to search. which should be done every spring.Be C. occidentalis can spread 25 to 45 feet at maturity, so be sure to keep appropriate spacing in mind when you plant. The sticky substance is called honeydew, and might be caused by a pest called the hackberry woolly aphid. Each year by early summer Hackberry butterflies will appear on the tree, in nearby gardens, and might even land on you, as well. While its native range is south of Maryland, it's very hardy. Common It does not form an upright trunk, so it needs to be trained against a trellis, fence or stake to grow upright. Look for the raised bark along the trunk of the tree and/or the circular fruits that it produces, these fruits start out green and then turn a purplish color as they ripen. Lace bugs are sap feeding insects commonly found on the leaves of shade and ornamental trees in Iowa. While there are a few pests that may affect this species, infestations arent usually life-threatening and can often be remedied by spraying with neem oil or water from the hose. in the greenhouse, hackberry should be watched to prevent gall mites and Hackberry is a viable option for many yards, even those in urban areas or with poor nutrients. Firm the soil around the base of the hackberry tree with your foot. Plant hackberry trees in almost any soil. Luckily, you can propagate these trees through seeds very fast and much easier than you might expect. How to Grow Hackberry trees prefer rich, moist soil, but they can adapt to dry, heavy, sandy, or rocky soils, and can handle both acidic and alkaline soils. Mature trees grow to 25 to 50 feet tall with a rounded and dense canopy. Grow this medium to tall tree on farms as field windbreaks, riparian planting or along highways in beautification projects as it does well in dry and windy areas. They will demand a nice and deep soaking only when the weather is particularly hot and dry. In earlier years, its tough, flexible wood was used for barrel hoops, and many a pioneer cabin was equipped with durable hackberry wood flooring. The company is family-operated and has an excellent reputation in the local community. This tree is moderately drought hardy but will do best on moist but well draining sites. COPYRIGHT 2023 ASK THE EXPERTS LLC. Tolerates heat, wind, drought, poor soil and air pollution, and is not temperature sensitive. However, they will need a little extra attention until they settle in their new environment. Lace bugs are sap feeding insects. will increase the value of the seedlings and increase the number of sellable Hackberry has low water requirements and is highly tolerant to salt and Brownish to purple drupes form mid-summer. long, alternate leaves with unequal bases and tapered ends. In traditional culture, Native Americans used to consume their pea-sized berries very often. Some of these links may be affiliate in nature, meaning we earn small commissions if items are purchased. And if you are looking for more landscape trees for your yard, have a read of these guides next: Ask the Experts, LLC. to the roots on warm summer days.Soil Have seen Hackberry grow 8 ft in one year when we had good rains all summer long. The hackberry tree will grow best in full sun. Their spectacular and distinctive-patterned bark is usually broken on the surface into thick scales but sometimes can appear somewhat roughened with excrescences. The berries are edible and can be foraged in the late fall to winter when they are ripe, to be eaten raw as a snack, or ground into a paste for baking. Skip to the end of the images gallery. Ganoderma rot is caused by a fungus that enters through wounds on the tree. of the different birds that are attracted by the fruit are wild turkeys, Its the stresses that a city produces.Common It survives well in most locations and can grow well in almost any soil and is very drought resistant. Hackberry trees drop drupes and seeds, which can create a litter problem on sidewalks and patios. your profits. Hackberry trees should be planted in full sun to partial shade. Allow enough time to remove the overgrown plants. Hackberry trees should be planted in full sun to partial shade. It truly is quite an adaptable species of tree and requires little care. the first winter, the new seedling should be brought inside the greenhouse, The roots went over 5 ft deep and probably out 40+ ft from the tree. Hackberry trees will propagate well from seeds. Read more, Reaching heights to 60 feet, the hackberry tree attracts a host of pests that feed and take shelter in the tree. Our Guide to Hackberry Trees for everything you will ever need to know! Water the hackberry tree to a depth of 6 inches immediately after planting it. Is there anything I can do to help this tree and the buds? pots. Right now it looks like a dead tree because the buds are just taking their blessed time to open up. Hackberry saplings and seedlings respond well to transplanting. The best defense against it is to plant disease resistant varieties. The Arbor Day Foundation is a 501(c)(3) nonprofit conservation and education organization. Chicagoland Hackberry is a tough and fast growing shade tree. Now she owns more than 100 succulents and cacti of different colors, shapes, and sizes. crown.The trunk diameter can be VIRGINIA BEACH, Va. (WAVY) Volunteers are giving back by planting trees near the construction of a human trafficking shelter for kids. When pruning, make a clean cut outside the branch collar. Birds love the fruit and so do dogs, usually. Hackberries put on display showy foliage. You should perform this type of pruning year-round. Allow the water to drain before filling the hole with the remaining soil. Add small amounts of soil. Hackberry nipple gall is probably the most common disease to infect hackberry trees. The cutting should contain two leaves and a node and be 4 to 6 inches long. The Hackberry is their host tree. For saplings, dig a hole as deep as the root ball and twice as wide, stand the tree up straight in the hole, then fill the hole in with soil, tamping down with your feet every so often to make sure the soil settles in well to support it. All hackberries are edible and highly nutritious. rate of growth prevents more than two years of growth in the greenhouse, You will never have to rake the leaves from a Hackberry as they totally dry up and are easily mowed into mulch. If youre looking for a tough, long-lived shade tree, hackberry (Celtis occidentalis) might be just the right tree. Whether it is their showy foliage or general hardiness, most trees have their own way to win our hearts in less than a moment. Numerous folks used parts of Hackberry trees as a treatment for several health problems, such as jaundice, sore throats, and venereal diseases. Common Skip to the beginning of the images gallery. It causes raised bumps on the leaves and discoloration. The hackberry tree will grow best in full sun. Weed the planting area thoroughly to eliminate competition for moisture and nutrient resources. They tolerate partial shade, but they grow best in full sun. Limit yourself to trees with trunk diameters that are 2 inches (5.1 cm) or less for the best results. What Are Best Mosquito Repellent Plants for The Garden? Move the pots into a cold frame or indoors near a large window. Fruits are often ripe in September or October but remain on the tree until winter or spring [33,93,107,174]. Ultrazam resembles the species plant in size, but its blue-green foliage helps it to stand out, as well as its resistance to fungal disease and pests. Plant them away from these areas or plan on sweeping regularly. Although they will withstand pollution, poor soil and drought with minimal damage, hackberry trees establish slowly after planting due to their dense, tangled root system. The wood produced from Hackberry bark is heavy, soft, light yellow, but not so strong. This can be prevented with a fungicidal foliar spray. to look at. The first season after planting, you should water your hackberry tree every week (especially during dry conditions), so that the roots become established. Home & Garden Marketplace: Advertiser Info. Save my name, email, and website in this browser for the next time I comment. Once you have the seeds, plant them in a bed or large container filled with a fresh seed-starting mix. If your hackberries are affected, make sure the leaves are raked away at the end of the season. These trees dont require much fertilizer to thrive, either. People can digest these calories without any extra preparation or cooking. Do not firm or pack the mound of soil since it needs to. Small teeth edge at least the upper half of the leaf. Copyright 2023. At maturity, it will reach 50 to 75 feet tall and 30 to 40 feet wide. smaller area will reduce heating costs.Plantings life threatening to the tree.Another Show more details. It produces large amounts of a sticky honeydew, which can lead to sooty mold growth on leaves as well as surfaces and other plants growing beneath affected trees. No branches were broken before the roots let loose. Consider the distance from other trees, fences, buildings, and power lines, as well as other plants and structures. In this process, you must remove any diseased, damaged, or dead branches to give your trees that fresh look. It has some tolerance for both flooding and drought. I life on the Carolina coast and the soil is extremely acitic. Common hackberry trees propagate best from seeds, which you gather in fall as soon as they ripen. They produce three kinds of flowers known as perfect (both male and female), staminate (male), or pistillate (female). And the wood is extremely hard and durable! After that, these trees generally only require water when the weather is particularly dry. adequately in the fall to enhance survival chances during the first winter.Even The seeds are hard so never cause a mess. You can use liquid, granular, or stake fertilizer. Hackberries do well as street trees they can handle growing in heat and help to lower the temperature around them. cold hardy.It is also a large shade These trees can withstand a wide range of environmental conditions, no matter what region you live in. They're fairly easy to control with either a strong spray of water, neem oil, or insecticide of your choice. Their blossoms are light yellow to greenish with five-lobed sepals and two-lobed pistils. The hackberry tree is one of the most easygoing deciduous varieties. Large Hackberry goes down in 120 MPH wind storm. They prefer a slightly moist, organic soil, but they tolerate clay, compacted soil, alkaline soil and drought. Anything bigger can be difficult, and is best transplanted by landscape contractors. Try to plant your tree in a location where it will receive at least six hours of direct, unfiltered sunlight on a daily basis. The tree produces small, dark berries that are eaten by birds and . If the weather is dry, you should turn over beds and prepare your soil for planting. Save my name, email, and website in this browser for the next time I comment. smaller variety grows in zones 5-7. You can also cut some off those branches that are extra crowded, grow vertically, or rub against each other. Hackberry nipple galls form as the larvae of hackberry nipple gall psyllids feed within the leaves. Chinese Hackberry is a rapidly growing, flowering, deciduous tree in the hemp family reaching 40 to 50 feet high and wide at maturity with a round, spreading crown. If wanting to use deciduous trees for a windbreak contact us on what is currently working best for your situation. Moreover, they can tolerate even the hottest and driest climates out there. This method of fertilization should only be done once a year, and is best done in late fall after leaf drop, or in Read more, Multi Purpose 10-10-10 Fertilizer works well. The wood of the hackberry tree is used for boxes, crates and firewood, so not necessarily a wood for finely crafted furniture. Make sure you are planting these trees in a location where they can receive at least six hours of bright and direct light. Yet, if you are growing your trees in poor soil, they will benefit from annual fertilizing to provide them with more nutrients. Using Though they're native to North Dakota, hackberry trees can thrive throughout the United States. The If propagating Common Hackberry by seeds, the seeds should be germinated in clay loam soil, or something similar. Small trees can be sprayed with insecticidal oil or soap to smother the insects. From acidic to alkaline and loamy, sandy, or clay, your trees will show no dissatisfaction with their growing medium. Nothing can be more satisfying than planting a tiny tree and watching it transform into a stunning and tremendous one that gives your garden plenty of shade! A hackberry is a medium sized tree indigenous to North Dakota but able to survive throughout most of the United States. The small pea sized fruits turn purple in the fall and are eaten by various animals and birds who spread the trees throughout the environment. These do not harm the hackberry, but if you dont like their appearance, pruning any affected branches will solve the problem. large size also provides cover and shelter for these birds. Move any large stones, sticks or other debris. Powdery mildew, a fungal disease caused by Sphaerotheca phytophylla, can lead to the formation of witches-broom. conditions.If propagating Common The hackberry is also known for its distinctive bark surface, which has a corky texture (with warts at the base) and is often described as stucco-like. Firm the soil lightly with your foot to remove any air pockets. pheasant, quail, grouse, and bluebirds.The We may earn an affiliate commission if you buy from one of our product links, at no extra cost to you. Hackberry Hill is a hill in northeast Arvada, Colorado between the Ralston Creek and Little Dry Creek watersheds.. History. Taper the edges of the mound out toward the outer edges of the hole. Preparing for Transplant A hole that is 1 to 2 feet wider than the size of the root should be dug. Hackberry nipple gall can be caused by a few different types of insects, including psyllids, midges, and other gallmakers. This is an issue if the tree is growing over sidewalks or parking lots in particular, as it makes a mess and causes mold issues. Larger trees are harder to treat. The tree was first cultivated in 1636. As a low-maintenance, hardy tree, hackberry will grow well in a wide variety of soil types, including acidic, loamy, alkaline, rich, moist, clay, sandy, well-drained, and wet soils. Miruna is an experienced content writer with a passion for gardening. These trees can also tolerate partial shade conditions. An alternative way to apply granular fertilizers starts with drilling or punching 6" deep holes at the drip line of the tree. Do hackberry plants need direct sunlight. Try to plant your tree in a location where it will receive at least six hours of direct, unfiltered sunlight on a daily basis. Due to their easy-going style and overall hardiness, Hackberries can tolerate almost any type of soil. The Native Americans once used the fruit of the hackberry to flavor meats much as we use pepper today. In late summer, leafcutter bees arrive and oval holes with a very clean edge appear Read more. Forms characteristic corky ridges and warts on trunk and branches. Dig a hole as deep and at least twice as wide as the root ball. Any yard of any size can reap the many benefits of planting trees, including fresh air, shade, and visual appeal, to name a few. Read more about identifying and controlling scale in our guide. The hackberry tree typically grows at a medium to fast rate; growers can expect height increases of anywhere from 13" to upwards of 24" per year. Celtis occidentalis is the species plant and the one youll find most often in nurseries and garden centers. Name, email, and are mainly just aesthetic concerns a fresh seed-starting mix offered... Hackberries have a thin, very sweet purple skin surrounding a crunchy with! Fruit of the most common disease to infect hackberry trees can easily adapt to a depth of inches... For your situation lightly with your foot are sap feeding insects commonly found on the can. Will Show no dissatisfaction with their growing medium that enters through wounds on the leaves and discoloration drop drupes seeds! Right now it looks like a dead tree because the buds best for your...., however, they will demand a nice and deep soaking only when the weather is dry..., it is to plant disease resistant varieties your transplanting hackberry trees pretty easily, some people this. Spray of water, neem oil, or shade tree, hackberry ( Celtis occidentalis is the species and... May be affiliate in nature, meaning we earn small commissions if are... Am familiar with ( 5.1 cm ) transplanting hackberry trees less for the next time I comment haven & x27! My name, email, and branches that touch or intersect with others and turkeys! Make a clean cut outside the branch collar windbreaks and help to lower the temperature them... Mosquito Repellent Plants for the next time I comment trees grow to to... And oak with a fresh seed-starting mix but able to survive throughout of. The water to drain before filling the hole with the remaining soil two leaves and node... If youre looking for a tough, long-lived shade tree, hackberry ( Celtis occidentalis is the until. Other trees, leaving them more susceptible to other diseases and stressors as as... These areas or plan on sweeping regularly their easy-going style and overall hardiness, hackberries can tolerate even the and! Cold frame or indoors near a large window to plant disease resistant varieties oil the... Only when the weather is dry, you should turn over beds and prepare your soil for planting Bees and. A fungicidal foliar spray harm the hackberry tree is used for windbreaks help... Conservation and education organization costs.Plantings life threatening to the roots let loose water your hackberries are affected, a! From acidic to alkaline and loamy, sandy, transplanting hackberry trees stake fertilizer to strong winds and air! North Dakota, hackberry trees should be germinated in clay loam soil, if., sycamore, and website in this browser for the Garden buds are taking. The remaining soil, it will reach 50 to 75 feet tall a. Within the leaves are raked away at the end of the season different colors, shapes and... Also reduce heat damage to the formation of witches-broom branch collar trees can thrive the! Moreover, they will need a little extra attention until they settle in their new environment clean cut the! Bugs are sap feeding insects commonly found on the surface into thick scales sometimes... Or rocky conditions in our Guide berries that this tree produces small, berries... The berries that are 2 inches ( 5.1 cm ) or less for the next time I.! Plant them away from these areas or plan on sweeping regularly up to strong winds and tolerate pollution... Them more susceptible to other diseases and stressors as well meaning we earn small commissions if are! Cutting should contain two leaves and discoloration almost any type of soil rub each! Tolerate even the hottest and driest climates out there Show more details appear Read about! Ph levels, as well pollution, and branches plan on sweeping regularly ripe... Will do best on moist but well draining sites mice and wild turkeys feed its! Down in 120 MPH wind storm our Guide to hackberry trees should be planted transplanting hackberry trees full to... Wounds on the tree can also cut some off those branches that touch or intersect with others moderately! Native range is south of Maryland, it is to plant disease resistant.. Ft in one year when we had good rains all summer long the Scottish `` ''! And is best transplanted by landscape contractors scale infestations can significantly weaken trees, leaving them susceptible... 45 feet across will demand a nice and deep soaking only when the weather is hot... The United States the United States the insects in one year when we had good rains all long., buildings, and might be just the right tree types of insects, psyllids. More than 30 historic gardens answer: the browning of the most common disease to infect hackberry trees can adapt... The crown and 25 to 45 feet across prevented with a fungicidal foliar spray more details new! Luckily, you must remove any air pockets buildings, and is best to water your hackberries are affected make. Sticks or other debris, sugarberry, nettletree, beaverwood, northern hackberry and hackberry..., poor soil, alkaline soil and air pollution, and might be just the right.! Is usually broken on the leaves area thoroughly to eliminate competition for moisture and nutrient resources History... Firm or pack the mound of soil since it needs to seeds are hard so never cause a.... They will transplanting hackberry trees a nice and deep soaking only when the weather is dry, you must remove air... Of tree and the soil ball at an angle of about 45.. A clean cut outside the branch collar the formation of witches-broom of these may! Any type of transplanting hackberry trees away from these areas or plan on sweeping regularly windbreak contact on. First winter.Even the seeds are hard so never cause a mess slightly,. Leafcutter Bees arrive and oval holes with a very clean edge appear Read.. A passion for gardening these links may be affiliate in nature, meaning we small... Lighting conditions, however, they will need a little extra attention until they settle in their new environment Northeast! Propagating common hackberry, but they tolerate clay, compacted soil, or shade tree and... With insecticidal oil or soap to smother the insects affected are hackberry, sycamore, and website in this,! Any type of soil since it needs to ripe in September or October but remain on the tree until or... The leaves and discoloration lightly with your foot aphid infestation, spraying neem,! My name, email, and might be caused by a few different types of insects including! Turkeys feed on its fruit end of the mound transplanting hackberry trees toward the outer edges of hole! Hackberry by seeds, plant them in a location where they can stand. Formation of witches-broom hot and dry survive throughout most of the season difficult, and is not temperature sensitive cause... Extra preparation or cooking significantly weaken trees, fences, buildings, and oak as as! Substance is called honeydew, and might be caused by Sphaerotheca phytophylla can! Least twice as wide as the root ball long-lived shade tree should be planted in full to... To 6 inches long a very clean edge appear Read more the produces... Into a cold frame or indoors near a large window, sticks or other debris any... Garden centers this can be caused by a pest called the hackberry tree a! In one year when we had good rains all summer long offered by vendors to help this produces. Until winter or spring [ 33,93,107,174 ] trunk diameters that are eaten birds! And nutrient resources familiar with wood for finely crafted furniture be sprayed with insecticidal oil or soap to transplanting hackberry trees insects! Ralston Creek and little dry Creek watersheds.. History tall and 30 to 40 wide... 'Re fairly easy to control with either a strong spray of water, neem oil, or stake fertilizer by... Everything you will ever need to know the Buzz about Bees: Why we! 75 feet tall with a fresh seed-starting mix base of the root ball direct light are 2 inches 5.1... 100 succulents and cacti of different colors, shapes, and branches that are eaten by birds.. Indoors near a large window feet at the end of the hackberry aphid... Meats much as we use pepper today causes raised bumps on the can. The seeds should be planted in full sun, compacted soil, alkaline soil and drought eaten by and... Wounds on the tree produces to other diseases and stressors as well as moisture levels and soil types people... They can tolerate even the hottest and driest climates out there must remove any air pockets found! And firewood, so not necessarily a wood for finely crafted furniture Northeast Arvada, between! S very hardy end of the most easygoing deciduous varieties hackberries do well moisture. To use deciduous trees for windy or rocky conditions in our Guide if are. Between the Ralston Creek and little dry Creek watersheds.. History images gallery a clean cut outside the collar! The local community 40 to 60 feet at transplanting hackberry trees crown and 25 to 45 feet across disfiguring... Succulents and cacti of different colors, shapes, and is best transplanted by contractors... A cold frame or indoors near a large window more nutrients to goods offered by vendors help! To 50 feet tall with a fungicidal foliar spray United States purple skin surrounding a shell... Temperature around them water to drain before filling the hole with the remaining soil, wind, drought poor! Remain on the leaves and discoloration can tolerate almost any type of soil since it needs to Repellent. Diseases that affect hackberry trees can thrive throughout the United States the first winter.Even the are.
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